Most service business owners make the same hiring mistake: they either clone themselves or swing too far in the opposite direction. Dave MacDonald, founder of The Better Together Group, has cracked the code on bringing in leadership that elevates your business without losing what makes it profitable.
In this episode, Dave shares his battle-tested approach to hiring leaders who bring proven systems from larger operations—without the disconnect that kills profitability. If you’ve ever wondered how to scale past $10M, $20M, or beyond without chaos, this conversation is your roadmap.
The “Descending Ladder” Hiring Strategy That Changes Everything
Dave’s counterintuitive approach: hire leaders from companies roughly double your size. Not too small (they won’t bring new systems), not too large (they’ll lose touch with the hands-on work that drives profit).
The sweet spot: If you’re running a $20M service business, target leaders from $40M firms. They’ve seen the systems that work at scale, but they’re still close enough to remember the grind.
The danger zone: Hiring someone from a $100M operation for your $20M business. They’ll design systems for problems you don’t have yet—and profitability vanishes while they build their empire.
“Throw Them in the Pool” – The Onboarding System That Reveals Everything
Forget the standard two-week onboarding playbook. Dave’s approach tests what really matters: can they swim when unexpected challenges hit?
Phase 1 – The Pool
Phase 2 – The Brick
Phase 3 – Juggling
Watch the 5 min. Systems Segment on YouTube:
The Three I’s: Building a Culture That Repels the Wrong People
Dave’s non-negotiable cultural framework filters out mismatches before they become expensive problems:
- Integrity
- Intensity
- Intentionality
Systems That Actually Improve (Instead of Just Existing)
The Annual Rewrite, The Weekly Rhythm, Feedback loops that matter
The People-First AI Strategy for Service Businesses
Dave’s refreshingly practical take on AI: “Old-world values with today’s most robust technology.”
What they’re actually using AI for:
- Writing and presentation creation
- Back-office automation (invoicing, payroll)
- Initial candidate screening
What they’re NOT doing:
- Chasing bleeding-edge tools that aren’t proven
- Replacing the human connection in recruiting
- Top-down AI mandates
Why This Matters for Your Service Business
If you’re stuck between $5M and $20M, you’re probably missing one thing: leaders who’ve already solved the problems you’re facing. The systems you need exist—you just need someone who’s lived them.
Dave’s approach removes the guesswork. Hire people who’ve already built what you’re trying to build. Test them hard and fast. Build a culture so strong that mediocrity feels uncomfortable.
Most importantly: don’t let your systems gather dust. Annual rewrites might sound exhausting, but it’s the difference between a business that scales and one that plateaus.
Want to transform your hiring and onboarding systems? These aren’t just recruitment tactics—they’re the foundation for scalable growth. The question isn’t whether you can afford to implement these systems. It’s whether you can afford not to.
Learn more about Dave MacDonald over at the Better Together Group. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn.
You can get the Customer Experience Guide (and other systems guides) to find issues before they become expensive problems
As always, if you have any questions or want to submit an amazing guest for the podcast, just reach out to me on the Systematic Leader website, and I’ll do my best to get them on. If you enjoy the interview, please take 30 seconds to rate the Systematic Leader podcast on your favorite platform. Thanks!
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